No copyright exists on this image
No copyright exists on this image
No copyright exists on this image
Bloody typical, I STILL didn’t get a decent shot of the text on the back of the hi-vis vest. Compare how this REO is uniformed to a typical BTP officer below:
This image courtesy of BTP website
Time: 20:48
Place: South Eastern Service Gravesend – Charring Cross
Date: 24 July 2010
Last night I had the “pleasure” of being detained against my will not by the police but by Rail Enforcement Officers who operate on the South Eastern rail services. What did I do wrong? I took a picture of these Rail Enforcement Officers and when they asked me to see and then remove the pictures from my phone I refused. Apologies for the long-winded post below, however it raises some very serious questions.
Here’s the story…
Making my way back from a BBQ yesterday I had the need to use the services of South Eastern Rail from Gravesend. When I arrived at the station I noticed two men in hi-vis vests and wondered whether they were the infamous Rail Enforcement Officers I’d heard stories about:
http://garyallanach.blogspot.com/2010/01/i-was-trying-to-exit-chatham-station.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-479607/Cub-Scout-leader-court-putting-feet-train-seat-just-seconds.html
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/Musician39s-gig-list-deemed-suspicious.6159440.jp
A quick check on the text on the back of their hi-vis jackets confirmed they were indeed REO’s. I’d never seen them before so thought I’d take a picture in the hope I could possibly write a blog post in the future about them. Little did I know that taking those pictures would trigger a chain of events that would lead to me forcefully being removed from a train, and then detained against my will by two people who had no power or authority to do so.
After taking the pictures of the REOs (note that no one stopped me taking these pictures) on the train platform my train arrived, which I boarded, and I went to go find a seat, I still had my phone in hand and as I sat down if fell from my hand to the floor. To check it was working okay I took a picture of my partner, as I was taking this picture I noticed that the REOs had boarded the train too and were on my carriage.
Opposite us on the other side of the train, as the enforcement officers were walking past another passenger volunteered that he had no ticket to one of the officers. While the passenger and officer were in conversation the other officer walked off, and I wanted to get clearer pictures of the back of the REO who was talking to the passenger so I could get a decent picture of the text on his jacket. He eventually left and a few minutes later his colleague came back down to us and started questioning me as to why I was taking pictures of them. He said he’d noticed me taking pictures on the platform. Here are some of the questions he asked:
Why were you taking pictures of my colleague and I?
At first I explained to him he had no authority to ask me and I was free to take pictures of whatever I wanted within reason. He did not accept the answer so I explained to him that I was a blogger and had heard stories about REOs in the past and I wanted pictures so I could blog about it at a later date.
Can I see those pictures?
Again I replied in the negative and explained to him that not even the police had that authority over me unless they thought I was involved in a crime, so he as a REO hardly had those powers either.
Can you delete those pictures?
Third time’s a charm. I said no again, and explained to him that they had no authority to ask me, nor could they force me to delete the pictures.
While he was asking me these questions his colleague came to join him and he too was asking me similar questions. Each time I told them they had no authority over me, and that I hadn’t committed any crime, nor was I unruly, and I had a perfectly legitimate ticket which entitled me to be on the train. The younger of the two officers explained he had seen me taking pictures of them on the platform and they had the right to see those pictures because of their safety. I refused. The older one then said they did have the authority to do so because of the terrorism act. I asked which terrorism act and why were they enforcing that act if they were not police officers? They informed us they did have those powers.
They began to say I needed their permission to take pictures of them. This is how I answered: Is there cctv on this train or on the platforms on the stations? Their answer was yes. So I told them that they nor their company had my permission to take my pictures at all.
I invited them to stay on the train with me until we got to Charing Cross station where I was more than happy enough to go to the police station so the police could explain to them that I was well within my rights by taking pictures and that they had absolutely no right to ask me to see or remove any pictures from my phone. They refused.
Instead they informed my partner and I that they would be taking us off the train at Dartford where they would meet the British Transport Police who would deal with the situation. I at first refused to go with them stating that they had absolutely no authority to kick me off the train without a legitimate reason. Bear in mind my partner had nothing to do with this incident at all and why they felt she needed to be removed from the train I have no idea. It must be pointed out that we did ask what would happen if we refused. Their answer was they would relay our descriptions to the police and the police would search for us and we would be arrested. I relented not wanting my partner to get too involved and advised them that I would get off the train under protest and that they were forcing me to do something against my will and I would be taking it further.
En route to Dartford Station they radioed the BTP and explained to the operator that I’d been taking pictures of them without their permission and they wanted the pictures taken off my phone. When we arrived at Dartford station we disembarked and they kept us detained on the platform until the BTP arrived. Whilst waiting for the BTP I explained I was perfectly within my rights to take pictures and told them they’d dug a hole for themselves as the very motive for wanting to take pictures of them was because I’d heard stories about them abusing their powers, and rather ironically they’d demonstrated that these stories were indeed true, and I explained to them that I would be blogging about it.
I asked them if I was allowed to smoke on the platform, their answer was of course in the negative, so I asked if I could leave the station to go for a cigarette they said no. I then enquired as to who would be paying for our travel home should we miss our last train and their answer was that I would as if I had deleted the pcitures as they requested I’d still have been on the train. I then asked how long we would have to wait for the police and they radioed in to get an ETA. 25 minutes. I then said I was not prepared to sit and wait for 25 minutes without a cigarette and would be leaving the station to do so and if they wanted to they could stop me. They didn’t, however the younger of the two followed me out and followed me back to the platform. Whilst I was gone the older of the two told my partner they were well within their rights now as I had been threatening by saying they’d dug a hole for themselves.
She relayed this information to me and I explained again that I was a blogger and I also flashed my press card at them. (Yes I have one, although not accredited). Eventually the BTP turned up and I asked to speak to them alone and related the whole story advising them that I knew my rights and that I also knew that they nor the REOs had any right to ask me to delete the pictures. To their credit they agreed, and they advised that they would be letting us get on the next train. I told them that the REOs needed to be educated about what rights they did or didn’t have and they again agreed and actually mentioned that the REOs were well known for being power hungry.
They left us, and went to speak to the REOs and we got on the next train to Charing Cross. In all this time the REOs did not once ask for our train tickets, which is one of their main duties.
So REO A1110SE and REO officer A1093SE you’ll be hearing a lot more from me very soon.
The story above raises some interesting questions.
Why if they had seen me taking pictures initially on the platform did they not ask me then?
Why do they feel they have the right to ask passengers to see photographs and ask for them to be deleted?
Why did they not want to go with me to Charing Cross police station?
Why do they dress in uniform that is very similar to the police? Is it to intimidate people?
Why do they think they have the power to detain anyone?
Since when was it a crime to take pictures?
Since when are the BTP personal body guards for the REO?
How many people who do not know their rights have become victims?
What am I going to do about it?
Write a blog post.
Contact South Eastern asking for all the cctv from last night.
Contact South Eastern and point them towards this blog.
Put the link to this post in as many relevant places as possible.Ongoing
Invoice South Eastern for my time. Time is money and my time costs £300 p/h after 20:47 pm.
Contact Passenger Focus and any other Rail Passenger Help Groups.
Contact the media
Send a link to this post to every single blogger I know and/or read.
Find out whether I have the right to charge the REOs for false imprisonment.
The fact that PRIVATE COMPANIES and their employees think they have the right to carry out actions like this and intimidate customers is very scary indeed.
UPDATE: You’ll have noticed I haven’t posted any pictures. I will do so as soon as I can get them off my non-fancy phone. If you’re a blogger and or a reader of this site you are free to distribute this article as you see fit. Please help me out by posting links to this article any where you can. I am going to be taking this further legally if I can. I’m not in it for financial gain (although I will be charging them for my time), I’m in it because I want to show in a court of law if possible that they are walking over people’s civil liberties and what they are doing or think they can do is illegal.
UPDATE 2: I’ve contacted the BTP asking for access to the CCTV footage, as well as whether I have grounds to lay charges against the REOs. I’ve heard back from them and have been informed that someone will be contacting me shortly.
UPDATE 3: The British Journal of Photography has written a post about the incident.. I also have a phone interview with an online news site tomorrow sometime. I have heard back from Passenger Focus and they’ve also forwarded my complaint to South Eastern. No word from BTP as yet.
UPDATE 4: Have heard from the BTP, they wanted further information. They have also spoken to supervisor of REOs who (surprisingly enough) were not at work today. I will be receiving an update in a few days time and the BTP will advise whether I have “a case”. Not looking too hopeful. In other interesting developments I was in contact with a solicitor today who may have done me a huge favour…That’s developing and will update when I can.
Some one asked me today why I don’t contact my local MP (Siobhain McDonagh). Simple. They only wheel her out at election time and to be honest I’d rather slit my wrists with rusty teaspoons than get her involved. (In addition I haven’t been very kind to her in the past). No chance a Labour MP would help out anyway.
I must add that as yet, the only contact I’ve had from South Eastern is an automated email saying they received my communication. I had prodded them again today by way of an email. Tomorrow I’ll be calling them. Rather hilariously it seems Southeastern outsource their customer services, to a comapny called “The Listening Company”, maybe I need to shout a little louder in order for them to actually hear me?
UPDATE 5: There’s a possibility I’ll be attending this event. on Thursday this week. Why not try and get there and ask some difficult questions of the manager? If you feel as strongly as I do about how a private company thinks it has the authority to detain their customers and attempt to illegally intimidate their customers please feel free to help out by contacting them. Speak your mind. Speech is free.
Great blog. There are always potential issues relating to taking pics in railway stations/on trains; they’re private property. But the little hitlers can only asy you to stop taking pictures.
I’m increasingly frustrated about how ignorant those in positions of power are about the laws they’re supposed to uphold. I’ve been threatened with arrest by a detective sargeant for taking photographs ‘illegally’ – in other words, in a public place. He didn’t like that I took pictures of him giving drunks a hard time, or that I refused to show him or delete. Luckily he knew I knew my rights, so eventually he dropped it, but he was extremely aggressive and threatening in his manner.
I have blogged about this story myself now here:
http://markreckons.blogspot.com/2010/07/even-non-police-are-hassling.html
Good luck with your pursuit of compensation.
@Mark,
I’m not really after compensation per say, although will nab them for the time they cost me. I’m more intersted in their employees abuse of civil liberties :-)
I’ve written a very short article on my blog about the incident and linked to here.
“They have also spoken to supervisor of REOs who (surprisingly enough) were not at work today”. Mmmm. Hiding away, methinks.
I hate power hungry jobsworths. I’ll blog this story later today.
No one reads my blog but it will give me something to do ;-)
Hey ho, here we go again – plastic police trying to rely on public ignorance to assert non-existent rights :-). Good piece.
One point – did you contravene something by taking a photo of “security equipment” at the station? Does an HV jacket count as that?
You could of course go and get a life.
Instead of looking for trouble, why not spend the time doing something worthwhile, like hanging yourself?
Unlucky for you numbnuts Wordpress tracks IP addresses, I’ll publish the result of exactly where that ip address originates later. Tut tut, Go ahead make my day, as Clint Eastwood once said.
I am reading this in Albania, once the most ruthless tyranny in Europe. I have come here to research an article on the country’s railways, which I have been photographing extensively. No one has stopped me or queried me in any way. I have indeed been shown great kindness: one driver invited me into the cab to take a picture of him at his control desk.
I work for a Railway company and seen them in action.
I would have delated the photos as I dont know the law on private land.
Good read.
Private land maybe but that does still not give them the right to see your phone. One thing I have started doing is not let them grab my railcard as the holder is my property not theirs. Petty? of course but it makes them annoyed and I like our heated discussions. I would of called the police and said you were being held against your will. This isnt Iran!
@John
Railway byelaws state you must ‘hand over’ your ticket for inspection. So aside from being petty, it is also against the law! I would suggest deliberately winding people up who are probably just doing their job is just childish.
Peacefully remonstrating with someone who you believe is dealing with you incorrectly or impolitely is an entirely different matter.
Tommy fair point but I should of pointed out that this reserved for the aggresive ones. Having my holder snatched is just not acceptable. I refuse to be intimidated by some aggresive hi vis wearing twat. Dont get me wrong some are very polite and helpfull. After all if people paid their fare there would be no need for them.
There are a few here who need to get a life, rather than make mountains out of molehills. Go and smell a rose and relax. This article sounds as if it is the last resort of someone who can’t get paid for writing. Justifiably so. Go and do some charity work and meet people who really have a hard life.
Don,
I’m not a professional writer, nor have I ever professed to be. If you’re not happy with the quality of writing you can go elsewhere.
I’m not claiming to have had a hard life far from it really, and this story is by no means a last resort. If you’d gotten off of your sanctimonious, self-righteous arse and read the whole blog you’d realise that.
It’s rather simple really you can sit and allow this country to slowly become a police state where eventually you will have no rights, or you could actually stand up for what you believe is right and fair, which is what I’m attempting to do.
There is a 3rd choice of course.
You could always fuck right off
Sad that someone has to go out of their way to wind-up others who may simply be doing their job
Yes, I agree, the REOs had no right to tell you to stop taking photos, but to state they had no right to ask you to stop is delusional and smacks of double standards. ie; I can do anything I want, but you can’t! What utter rubbish, they have every right to ask you to desist, just as you have the right to say ‘No’.
On the other hand, if your actions in continuing might be considered to be intentionally provocative and might lead to a breach of public order because someone takes personal offence, maybe this would be viewed differently in law.
I’ve worked in this industry and the prosecution of offenders for some 30-odd years and recognise that there are as many good staff as there are pleasant travellers and just as many arrogant and agressive travellers as there are bad staff, but the thing I find most disappointing in this post is that you somehow see the need to resort to the language of the gutter and idle threats to get a point across.
I do need to clarify, that I meant the previous poster re the offensive language bit not the originator of this thread. I am sorry if that wasn’t clear
I had misread that post twice!! See how easy it is to make a mistake, I was right first time it appears, it was the OP who made the remark.
Bud are you sure you read the post correctly? They never asked me to stop taking pictures, they asked to see them and then asked me to delete them. Both of which they have no authority to do. They also detained me against my will for refusing to do so.
hi, i was told by someone about this blog and decided to have an opinion, firstly i work for the railway so i understand how this situation could easily have gotten out of hand, now lets just assume people would just buy their tickets get on the trains get off the trains when reaching their destinations alot of these problems would not arise, if i’m standing minding my own business and someone starts taking pictures of me (when i’m not a celebrity) i would get paranoid and confront the person.
I am not being biased because i work for the railway but taking what you said into account, you just randomly started taking photos of staff, you might consider this to be normal but to alot of people this is considered offensive.
Its seems to me that you have a personal vendetta against the REO’s or maybe railway staff in general, I must admit that holding you against your will when you had a valid ticket might be considered abit extreme but i do not know the content of the conversation you had with them, it could be that due to the bbq you attended you where not sober and might have said a few things in anger which could be termed as aggressive.
Please do not take offence to this as it is not intended to infuriate the reader but just to try and view from a different angle.
Morris,
Correct I was at a bbq and consumed 3 beers in the space of about 7 hours so was hardly drunk, and definitely was not aggressive at all. Yes I took pictures, unhindered on the platform (Although the had seen me taking pictures, which is what they told me while on the train.) I hadn’t realised they were on the train until they actually walked passed me. They still never said anything to me about the photos. When one of them was dealing with another passenger I had a better chance to get a picture of the back of their hi-vis vest which is what I did. Unknown to me the other REO had seen me taking the picture and it was he who confronted me. After standing up for myself I became angry when they said they were taking me off the train and holding me until the BTP arrived.
I have no qualms with REOs or train companies in general,(although they are pretty incompotent when it comes to delays etc, but that’s a totally different story). If you take the time to read this entire blog you will notice one theme. Politics. Not consumer action, not civil liberties activism.
The whole incident did get out of hand, however none of it was planned, me taking photographs was a spontaneous reaction to seeing the REOs (which was the first time I’d seen them iin the flesh).
Hope that clears it up for you.
The whole point of the posts I’ve written is this:
They are not allowed to ask you to see your pictures…Fact
They are not allowed to ask you to delete said pictures…Fact
They are not allowed to detain you for refusing to delete said pictures…Fact
They partook in all 3 activities above, incorrectly. I’m sure they now know this, which is one of the objectives, and I’m sure plenty of other people now know that REOs are not allowed to ask these things.
To be able to simultaneously shoot yourself in one foot, while putting the other in your mouth is a trick probably more suited to a Victorian Hall of Fools. You compound the stupidity by also putting your head above the crumbling parapet of technology so that others can comment on your lack of sense.
You are clearly unaware of your rights or responsibilities when you travel on the railway. As well as national laws, you are also subject to Railway Bylaws, and National Conditions of Carriage. The former are largely related to courtesy and manners, which are clearly beyond your comprehension. While you are happy to spout drivel, your time would be better spent making yourself aware of regulations such as those precluding you from wearing soiled work clothes on the railway. Also learn that carrying more than two pets breaks bylaws, as does carrying large flat-pack items beyond a certain size. Even allowing a mobile phone to ring contravenes bylaws pertaining to the playing of music. (My own bug-bear!) These are all matters of courtesy, but sadly we need rules to enforce them these days.
I have worked extensively with Rail Enforcement Officers, TravelSafe Officers and third party security companies. While I accept that sometimes someone may make an ill-advised decision, you should be aware that you are obliged to obey any instruction given to you by someone authorised to give that instruction. Clearly, taking furtive photographs is not acceptable behaviour, even if the law of the land allows it. These staff are not tyrants, they are basically trying to make passengers behave in a polite manner, for the comfort of the majority. It is a sad reflection on society that they are even necessary.
As I said in a previous post, find something worthwhile to do, that is within your limited capabilities, and leave workers to get on with their jobs.
It’s pretty simple I don’t understand why you’re not comprehending it.
They cannot ask to see the pictures, nor can they ask for them to be deleted, and they certainly cannot detain you or kick you off of a train for refusing to do so. Simple. As for courtesy, I’d have had a lot more if they’d not overstepped their authority and tried to be the police (who ALSO cannot ask you to delete pictures)
You obviously have a vested interest if you’re working with these people so your response is understandable.
I don’t doubt for a minute that there are some decent REOs out there, I just happened to bump into two , (how can I put this mildly?) cuntish idiots that didn’t have the first clue about what their job involved. Their fault or the company’s? I don’t know but they were wrong.
There seems to be some double standards applied here. We have seen countless times on Traffic Cop shows when some scrote objects to the camera crew filming them, and are told that it’s public property, and they have every right to film it. Yet we have memebers of the public, on public property, being stopped or arrested for filming. Usually some feeble justification like the Prevention of Terrorism Act or drivle like that, but it’s all seems quite spurious.
Now I’m all for the scrotes getting filmed, but I don’t like to see these double standards.
I wonder if this one will be allowed, as the other post I posted was not authorised for some reason, maybe because I highlighted the fact that there is NO law against ASKING for filming to stop, or for ASKING pictures to be deleted etc. Anyway, in relation to Porkpie’s post, on Traffic Cops etc most of the filming of scroats is done on public property, and not on trains or stations…
Stigy, you have the honour of being the first person to have their comment “moderated”. The honest truth is because I’m sick and mother fucking tired of having to explain why what those dumb-shit fucking idiots did was wrong.
There may not be any law against asking filming to stop. But failing to stop filming is NOT against the mother fucking law.
Additionally, AGAIN, there is no law that states ANYONE has to delete ANYTHING if requested by another citizen, even if that citizen is a dumb, shit useless police officer, there is however a precedent that has been set, countless mother-fucking times that has been passed down the line to those idiotic dumb-shit, mother-fucking idiots that assume they are the law, that they may not ask, or insist that pictures and/or films are deleted.
And there is certainly no precendent that’s been set to detain anyone for refusing to delete a picture.
Easy as fucking pie. If you can’t grasp that concept then there’s no hope for you, and that is EXACTLY why your last comment was not approved. Until such time as you can prove that what I did was illegal, then you can frankly go fuck yourself. I’m not unfair, if you can provide proof to show I’m wrong then I’ll let your comment through. But until then you can keep sitting in the corner jerking yourself off thinking you have the higher moral ground.
Seriously do a Google search, enter these terms: Terrorist Photographer.
Enjoy your weekend fuck nugget.
Just come across this via the BJP. I’m particularly pleased at the title “Private police state”. The police rightly cop a lot of crap about their frequent and swaggering abuse of powers, but not enough attention is given to where the touchpaper is invariably lit; the arrogant little private armies who seem to invent their own remit as they deem fit, then pass it off to the fuzz when they don’t get the forelock-tugging respect they apparently crave.
If you fancy picking an argument with some real police impersonators, head off to Canary Wharf and pull out a dSLR. Within five minutes or so you should be getting fed a nice line in bullshit about your terrorist potential by guys dressed the way coppers would be if the Met had cut the uniform budget to five percent of current levels and were forced to buy at Hamleys. They come complete with chequered vests and hatbands, and on occasion a motley lookign dog or two restrained with a lead that looks remarkably like string. Quite why the actual police don’t have some issues with this, I don’t know, but I’m sure there’s more to it than meets the eye.
Hope you end up with a result.
@Mark,
I’m very aware of the goings on at Canary Wharf, if you Google Charlie Veitch he has some very cool YouTube vids about the place, keep an eye out for the vids titled The Liberation of Canary Wharf.
I’ve had a result, an apology from Southeastern and an assurance that their passengers are welcome to take pictures of their staff and stations. I had to fight for it though :-)
Cheers
Olly
Olly I have passed this onto my community.
http://markjcphotography.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/the-private-police-state/
I hope the powers that be, reprimand the workers involved in this incident and justice be served to you and your companion. Good Luck
Mark, it’s been a long slog but I got a bit of justice. The REOs have apparently been disciplined, Southeastern has apologised and assured me via an email that their passengers are welcome to take photographs of their staff and stations.
They have also said they’ve communicated this down to their staff…
I had to resort to dirty tactics though elsewhere on this blog to force an apology though.
Thanks for linking to your community, the more people that know about it the better.